(This was supposed to be a video interview with Romio Shrestha but the internet was not friendly that day and the video quality was not great, so instead we are sure you will enjoy this interview transcription.)
Megan Spencer
Welcome everybody again to the Meditation Australia interview series. Meditation Australia is the national peak industry body for meditation, teaching and meditation in Australia. My name is Megan Spencer and I’m the host of this new series of conversations for MA community, where we hear from interesting and inspiring people doing interesting and inspiring things in the world of meditation, meditation teaching, from across the traditions.
It’s my very great pleasure to introduce to you today to Master Romio Shrestha. A modern master of the Indo-Nepali-Tibetan Buddhist traditions of Enlightenment Art, Romio Shrestha is found to be the 17th reincarnation of Tibetan Thangka painter, Arniko.
His beautiful, intricate enlightenment art is featured in many of the permanent collections of major galleries, museums, and private art collections all over the world, including the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, the American Museum of Natural History in the United States, and he is the only living artist with works in the British Museum of Art. The late George Harrison and other celebrities and creatives have also keenly collected his work.
Preserving and innovating the ancient wisdom and traditional craftsmanship of Thangka, Romio also founded a school in Nepal in 1968. Into the 21st century he brings the world of Thangka into the present, and on into the future.
He’s travelled the world with his paintings and made many friends along the way. He was born in Kathmandu, in Nepal and now lives in Ireland with his wife Sophie, also a Thanghka painter, and his family – which is where I am speaking to him right now!
Hello, Romio. Thank you very much for your time today.
Romio Shrestha
Thank you for having me. Pleasure.
Megan Spencer
You have lived a very, very interesting life. And I’ve spent a bit of time doing a little bit of research listening to some of the talks you’ve given, which are freely available on the internet. And you say that you are “happily” a “monastery drop out”. And I feel that you’ve got kind of a ‘rock and roll’ heart too, a very libertarian heart… So I wonder if you might like to talk about freedom and love and meditation from that perspective, today, and during the time we are presently living in?
Romio Shrestha
Rock and Roll… Well, I met one of the great poets and singers Patti Smith. And she, in one of the conversations, I remember her saying, “We need a Dalai Lama that drinks and smokes too – so he knows where we’re coming from”. So I thought that was very fascinating.
So, I didn’t know what my karma [was]. But I was brought to a great poet called Allen Ginsberg in New York by one of the Sufi teachers back in the day. And when he saw [my] art, he quickly called William [Burroughs], saying, “You never went to Tibet, [so now] Tibet comes to you! You [two] have to meet!”
So [William is] the only one I ever shot a gun with – so that’s how far I went [for] the West, “the Wild West” mindset”, you know: William S. Burroughs. And he was the [most extreme] in the whole rock and roll world. Every rock star I met – for [them] he was the equivalent to Jesus Christ – a rebel to the extreme.
And as I study the human civilisation, how religions or organisations or systems have totally enslaved the human race, [it] is sad. And, in fact, as we speak, now everybody is complaining about lockdown, and I think it is a great opportunity for the whole human race to ask three questions: Who am I? Where am I? And where do I want to be?
Megan Spencer
Do you think we’re asking that?
Romio Shrestha
Some are, some are not. But like, you know, taking retreats: the longer retreat you take, if you do not panic and [get] depressed – or similar – to the extreme, then I think the fear that the [COVID-19] virus has created has killed more people than the virus itself.
Thousands of people in India are starving and they have no work. And there is no government that supplements their lifestyle either.
So it’s kind of an irony. As we’re seeing, I think the whole world is going through a transformation. Money is no longer a form of security. It is in the people. See the system, the ‘hungry ghost’ system – the greedy system – has created a ‘little’ pandemic that the Earth was almost going to go extinct.
So, this is time – and the evolution of time – actually checking us, stopping us from greater danger. A danger of extinction…
It is a wake up call to the human race.
Imagine if 80% of the crew in a battleship is affected by Coronavirus: what is that battleship good for? This is [necessary news] for the human race to hear: that no matter how big a gun you have, even an unseen virus can destroy all your psyche. We are very vulnerable.
Megan Spencer
Yes we are.
Romio Shrestha
We have to evolve. So, as an artist – all artists have a message. And the last body of work I exhibited in New York in Tibet House was titled ‘Body of Light’. Like we have a physical, emotional and mental body, we also have a body of light…
… The mind stops. You come to a space of silence. Total stillness, which Buddha described as Śūnyatā. It’s the equivalent to a black hole in science where infinite possibilities happen.
So, in meditation, if you can quieten your mind, you get everything that’s in your mind to go into ‘factory mode’. In fact, before you’re born, because depending on what family you’re born into – if you’re born into a Christian family you, become a Christian; if you’re born into a Buddhist family, you become a Buddhist; if you get born into a Hindu family, you become a Hindu – so all the reasons, everything that you actually can intellectualize and conceptualize, you found here. And in fact, one day you have to let it all go too… So if you understand the impermanence of our being here, to give you the freedom to be free, nothing – nothing in this illusory world should ever drop your peace of mind.
Megan Spencer
And do you think that meditation can lead us not just to peace of mind, but to becoming free? [By going] ‘within’?
Romio Shrestha
Yes. It all moves. It depends [on] what kind of a concept you have of meditation. I have come to a point where even walking – when you are conscious of your behaviours and your thought patterns, and what you are doing… When you understand to observe your mind with the mind… When you become a conscious being – everything you do is a meditation.
Megan Spencer
I wanted to ask you [about this idea]… Because when I first sent you a message to ask if you’d like to do this interview, you wrote back one answer: “Yes. Meditation is the answer”.
And I think you’ve said about your own painting that it takes over a year to make each piece [and that] there is a prayer attached to each brushstroke. And it is [a process of] bringing ‘the sacred’ into other people’s spaces. And I wondered, as [it sounds as if] you go into a particular state when you are painting, is your life a meditation as a result of this kind of work that you do on the outside, and on the inside?
Romio Shrestha
My paintings are a mirror image of your higher self. So [for example], if you are to meditate on the [Buddha or Goddess] Green Tara, the concept of a meditator is to become like Green Tara: to embody her quality. Or, a White Tara. So to understand what the deity looks like, then comes the Thangka painting.
So now the secret about gaining [from] these great Sacred Master Works, is, if your intention of every brush stroke is Green Tara – so, every brushstroke is applied with the mantra Om Tare Tuttare Ture So Ha – not thinking, “oh, I’ve got these bills to pay, or I’ve got this meeting to go to” – the intention you apply on the painting does find you back [return to you]. So that is the difference within the work I do and on the paintings.
[Thangka painting] – it’s described as “liberation through sight”! It is a freedom from beyond this world, beyond the world of wrongdoing and right doing.
This is a place – this is a sacred space… Like, I’ll describe in our conversation [an example of what I mean]: only in the presence of my mother did I have the freedom to make a mistake. So my religion was that freedom: unconditional love. Not love with conditions, but unconditional love.
Megan Spencer
And do you believe that perhaps your paintings can communicate that unconditional love because there is a great sense of ‘inter-being’ in your work? It’s made up of so many different parts yet, it’s one. And it’s so beautiful – they’re very powerful these pictures…
Romio Shrestha
They have the power to transform even a concrete bunker into a sacred space. All the beings are [painted from] ground-up minerals: like blue is from Lapis Lazuli, red is from Cinnabar, Green is from Malachite, Gold is really Gold – but they do carry a sense of intelligence. Like I was explaining: every brushstroke is painted with a mantra…
So every [person] who hangs their painting – after they have purchased them, I tell them, “Look every morning, stand in front of it. And imagine you’re looking in a mirror. This is a mirror image of your higher self”. So anybody who buys a White Tara [painting] say, and starts off her day thinking of [her] – embodying the goddess of active compassion in their mind, speech and thoughts – their life will change! Their day will change! And that’s the whole concept.
For a positive thinker, every problem has a solution. For a negative thinker, every solution is a problem…
Megan Spencer
Yeah, it’s how we relate to it, isn’t it? I’m really keen to explore further this sense of liberty and freedom that you do embody with not just your work but in your words and when you speak, and in your life. You’ve said that you’re “a monastery drop out” and that “your monastery has no walls”. Can you speak to that a little bit more – to tell us what you mean by that?
Romio Shrestha
Mmmm. When you are confined in the walls, then you’re limited to what exists outside the walls. For sixteen lifetimes I studied and studied all the Buddhist preachings. Still I haven’t touched 10% of it. But it is all archetype. But as I studied philosophy, it is about freedom. lt is not about practice. If you can go beyond your practice, it is not about your mind. If you can go beyond your mind then you will understand what the scripture is really trying to teach. The Book of Wisdom was the thing – the Bodhisattva of all wisdom carries. That book had no pages. So when your mind is free of all information, especially in this day and age – the human mind is drowning in information, but no wisdom! – even the tiniest of that information, we can transform to wisdom and practice karma. You can read about it, study about it. But if we can really understand karma, and live it, it’s really good.
I would love to read [to you] this [teaching] on Enlightenment, that Tilopa, the great master of the Tantric tradition, taught to his favourite disciple, Naropa, who was of the great lineage of Milarepa, the greatest poet of Tibet.
Megan Spencer
Please do!
Romio Shrestha
You know, Mahamudra – “Maha”, is the greatest of the “mudras”. Greatest of form -so basically [it’s about] enlightenment…
[Romio reads]: “Mahamudra is beyond all words and symbols, But for you, Naropa, earnest and loyal, must this be said. The Void needs no reliance; Mahamudra rests on nothing. Without making an effort, but remaining natural, one can break the yoke thus gaining liberation. If one looks for naught when staring into space; if with the mind one then observes the mind; one destroys distinctions and reaches Buddhahood.“
“The clouds that wander through the sky have no roots, no home, nor do the distinctive thoughts floating through the mind. Once the Self-mind is seen, Discrimination stops. “
“In space, shapes and colours form. But neither by black nor white is space tinged. From the Self-mind all things emerge; The Mind by virtues and by vices is not stained. The darkness of ages cannot shroud the glowing sun; the long eons of Samsara ne’er can hide the Mind’s brilliant light. “
“Though words are spoken to explain the Void, the Void as such can never be expressed. Though we say, “the Mind is a bright light,” it is beyond all words and symbols. Although the Mind is void in essence, all things it embraces and contains.”
“Do naught with the body but relax; Shut firm the mouth and silent remain; Empty your mind and think of naught. Like a hollow bamboo rest at ease your body. Giving not nor taking, put your mind at rest. Mahamudra is like a mind that clings to naught. Thus practicing, in time you will reach Buddhahood.“
“The practice of Mantra and Perfections, instructions in the Sutras and Precepts, and teaching from the Schools and Scriptures will not bring realization of the Innate Truth. For if the mind when filled with some desire should seek a goal, it only hides the Light. One who keeps the Tantric Precepts yet discriminates, betrays the vows of Awakening, Cease all activity; abandon all desire; let thoughts rise and fall as they will like the ocean waves.”
“One who never harms the Non-abiding nor the Principles of non-distinction, upholds the Tantric Precepts. He who abandons craving and clings not to this or that, Perceives the real meaning given in the Scriptures. In Mahamudra all one’s sins are burned; in Mahamudra one is released from the prison of this world. This is the Dharma’s supreme torch. Those who disbelieve it are fools who ever wallow in misery and sorrow. “
“To strive for liberation one should rely on a Guru. When your mind receives the Guru’s blessing emancipation is at hand. Alas, all things in this world are meaningless; they are but sorrow’s seeds. Small teachings lead to acts. One should only follow teachings that are great. To transcend duality is the Kingly View; to conquer distractions is the Royal Practice; the Path of No-practice is the Way of the Buddhas. 0ne who treads that Path reaches Buddhahood. “
“Transient is this world; like phantoms and dreams, Substance it has none. Grasp not the world nor your kin; Cut the strings of lust and hatred; meditate in woods and mountains. If without effort you remain loosely in the “natural state,” soon Mahamudra you will win and attain the Non-attainment. Cut the root of the tree and the leaves will wither; cut the root of your mind and Samsara falls. The light of any lamp dispels in a moment the darkness of long eons; the strong light of the mind in but a flash will burn the veil of ignorance. “
“Whoever clings to mind sees not the truth of what’s beyond the mind. Whoever strives to practice Dharma finds not the truth of Beyond-practice. One should cut cleanly through the root of the mind and stare naked. One should thus break away from all distinctions and remain at ease. One should not give and take but remain natural, for Mahamudra is beyond all acceptance and rejection.”
“Since the consciousness is not born, no one can obstruct it or soil it; staying in the “Unborn” realm all appearances will dissolve into the ultimate Dharma. All self-will and pride will vanish into naught. The supreme Understanding transcends all this and that. The supreme Action embraces great resourcefulness without attachment. The supreme Accomplishment is to realize immanence without hope.” [Romio finshes reading this text].
… So: that’s one of my teachings – or one of my understandings – for us to go beyond all teachings, all wisdom. Because once you are stuck up in the wall, once you are limited to your intellect, your concept, you know, you are not free. And especially now in the modern day world, I see even beyond the “rock and roll world”, beyond the “festival kids” – kids who are taking ayahuasca and psychedelics – they are breaking ground to find that higher sphere… That’s what yoga was all about.
Megan Spencer
To go beyond –
Romio Shrestha
– To go beyond your mind.
Megan Spencer
Yeah.
Romio Shrestha
Yes.
Megan Spencer
And there are people who [do] use meditation as a vehicle to break those chains. And I’m not anti-psychedelics or ayahuasca. In fact, they can be great tools to experience [a kind of awakening] –
Romio Shrestha
– It’s an easier way!
Megan Spencer
[Agreeing], but it is an easier way than to do the hard [practice] – the “climbing up the mountain” as some call it, you know. So where do you sit with that? It’s an interesting one, isn’t it?
Romio Shrestha
Like I said… A lot of, some people, when they approach me as a ‘guru’, I tell them to “spell guru”. Do you know how to spell ‘guru’?
Megan Spencer
Me?
Romio Shrestha
Yeah!
Megan Spencer
G-U-R-U?
Romio Shrestha
Yes. So I say, you know, “there’s no point of you looking at me as guru. Because very clearly as the spelling of the guru expresses, “gee, you ARE you!”
Megan Spencer
[Laughing] That’s fantastic!
Romio Shrestha
I’m figuring out my own life! Forget me, and you go figure out your life!
Megan Spencer
Oh that’s brilliant! That’s one of the best jokes I’ve ever heard! [Laughing]
I’ve read and listened to you say, that your purpose is to, I guess allow people to realize that they’re already enlightened. Is that true?
Romio Shrestha
That’s very true. My purpose in my life is to awaken the Divine in every single person I meet in my life. I believe every single human being is enlightened. They are a tiny bit lost in this melodrama our individual mind has created.
But there will be a time when we wake up from [it]. It could be at your death bed, because before you leave this planet you have to let go of all your emotional material – all the baggage!
In the last flight, there’s no baggage allowed! Not even hand luggage!
Megan Spencer
You know what’s awesome? You have such a great sense of humour Romio! It’s quite amazing. And maybe sometimes in this meditation setting, you know, being ‘teachers’ and ‘gurus’ and ‘this’ and ‘that’, maybe we hold it too seriously or too tightly. We need to hold it more lightly… But you’ve got a fantastic sense of humour.
Romio Shrestha
Yes, well, the whole point of being a dropout from all the systems – monasteries and universities – was to stay innocent. A childlike mind. Only in an innocent childlike mind is anything possible. If you’re educated and you’re shaped, you’re confined in your belief system. You cannot imagine or dream anymore more. You’re always, at the back of your head, “No, you can’t do that!”
Like when I first approached the British Museum, my friend was there and said [to me], “No! You’re not gonna go sell a painting! It’s not Kathmandu! I mean, you sold a few paintings to tourists, that doesn’t mean that you can sell it to the British Museum here”…. So it’s very important.
Megan Spencer
I can see why the free spirits and the ‘creative, bohemian, musician-types’ are attracted to your to your work!
Romio Shrestha
Yes, it bought me a ticket to all their shows!
You know, every time I opened up the roll of paintings I carry on my back, there’s always a sense of awe-ness. How did you paint this? How long did it take? What is it made out of? The sheer details [are] pretty interesting!
But I do hope to come to Australia. I have a few friends there… One of the actors, called Tony Colette! …And recently I met Jimmy – Jimmy Barnes… Jimmy’s daughter Elly-May Barnes was doing a workshop together with me at Deepak’s…
Megan Spencer
Chopra?
Romio Shrestha
Yes. So Jimmy has been telling me,” Come on, come to Australia! Come to Australia!”
Megan Spencer
Amazing!
Romio Shrestha
It could be a fun thing to do.
Megan Spencer
We’ll all have to meditate on that one I think!
Romio Shrestha
Yeah!
Megan Spencer
Maybe we will look at winding up our conversation for today. But, given that probably most of the people reading this interview are meditation teachers, is there something you could say to them, or share with them, that you have learned from maybe a teacher of yours, that might inspire – that might give some kind of encouragement?
Romio Shrestha
Like I explained, I’m no teacher, prophet or guru. I’m just a friend. So, one thing I have understood, when I make a [presentation] in public, is I have learned to vibrate unconditional love.
It is the right of every single human being: low-born or high-born; theists or atheists; educated or non-educated; rich or poor: they all have a birth right to realize [their] ‘body of light’. And it is my ultimate dream, that human beings realise that we have a body of light. Because once we realize we have a body of light, there will be no darkness. And light always merges, light never fights. I’m just waiting for the day, when human beings can evolve – mentally, emotionally – and realise that we are all one in different karmic bodies.
It is time to create a Sangha that is inclusive of all Sangha. It’s time to create a religion that is inclusive of all religions. It’s time to create a tribe of a human race. Because we live, we do live in a beautiful planet. And we have to consider our behaviours and habits, and [work[ on how to heal the planet…
That’s why meditation: in meditation we are all one.
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Grateful thanks to Romio Shrestha!
Credits:
Interviewer & transcription edit: Megan Spencer
Thank you: Karen Stone.
This interview was transcribed from a Zoom interview with a very dodgy internet connection! Portions of it have been edited for reading ease and flow.
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Read about Romio’s work at: http://romioshrestha.com